in my local church, how about 4, if we add the Wednesday night church prayer meetingg?
how about 5, if we add a workshop Sunday afternoon, or Saturday morning?
i guess i'm not looking for a "number" answer but rather a Biblical principle to go by. in the process, i'd like to re-think the purpose of each of our well-intended gatherings.
> 反而當處身「聚會＞忙＞沒預備好聚會＞更忙」這惡性循環當中，人就首先要想到向聚會開刀。
hm...perhaps that's what motivated this entry in the first place.
When we need to add the "how-about"-gatherings, we need to question why we're not doing the original 3 (Sun service, fellowship, Sun school) good enough. Adding gatherings of course won't help but worsen the original 3 because we spare our time and energy for more gatherings.
Can we not pray well and pray in one in the original 3, that we need to add prayer meetings?
Can we not learn well the Bible and how to apply it in Sun school that we need to add another workshop?
I just like to point out that if not realized by gatherings, how do we realize「慢下來」或「靜下來」? I doubt if stopping to meet and staying at home would help...
哎呀, I think you know what I mean...but you withhold a straight-forward answer ...to force me to cough up /clarify my view ...
> I doubt if stopping to meet and staying at home would help...
Of course, I don't mean to not meet at all. But for some, cutting down the number of meetings would help.
> Can we not pray well and pray in one in the original 3, that we need to add prayer meetings? Can we not learn well the Bible and how to apply it in Sun school that we need to add another workshop?
I would like to continue with your rationale and ask, just for the sake of arguing, why not 2?
If we pray well and learn the Bible well all during Sunday school and worship? Aren't 2 good enough?
Or, if we do all of them "well" in one seating, even Sunday worship alone covers the following two aspects:
1. Temple related - Worship and offering various sacrifices in the Old Testament.
2. Synagogue related - the Jewish tradition of synagogue activities of Scripture reading/ chanting. These could possibly have become the New Testament church's hymn and Psalm singing/Scripture reading/Holy Communion/praying.
Yes, just for the sake of arguing, no ill-feeling...
> if we do all of them "well" in one seating, > even Sunday worship alone covers...
Of course worship, praying, reading the Bible, serving are all intertwined and difficult to separate them in practice. Every different kinds of gathering has a bit of everything, but with a different focus -- this we all know:
Worship: praying, learning God's word, fellowship and serving in the context of worship (God-focused, vertical, unity, unified testimony...). The point is, is God glorified through the congregation and these rituals? So we shouldn't tolerate an untrained pianist to be pianist here. If one didn't get anything from the sermon, we challenge him instead of the preacher, because this is the time for God, not individuals.
Fellowship: praying, worship, learning God's word, and serving in the context of fellowship (B&S-focused, horizontal, communication, interactive, learning, sharing, praying for one another's needs, application of learned principles, diversity, diversified testimony...). The point is, do we learn something from one another from our and their faith through how we practise our faith? How to stand up again if one fell? This is why we could and we should tolerate a brother or sister to be a poor guitarist serving in the hymn session, even giving him/her a next chance to improve, and next time, and next time... If one didn't enjoy the gathering, we evaluate how we conducted the rundown, ask why the message or the good feelings of brotherhood was not received.
Sun school: praying, worship, fellowship, serving in the context of learning God's words (truth-focused, what the Bible teaches about all these praying, worship, serving, fellowship, and of course how to apply them...). The point is to find out and understand what the Bible is teaching. We talk about application but this is not the time to practise -- practise it somewhere else: in worship, in fellowship, in service, in your workplace, at home... At fellowship, one's understanding of the truth could be very persoal, here we almost want to have the one and only almost-dogmatized exposition of God's Word.
This is how I come to the conclusion that we need 3 instead of 2. Let me call these "the big-3".
If we're tempted to cut down fellowship and claim we could achieve that essence in worship, then I vision the form of worship need to be re-designed in a radical way. Could the teaching of truth in Sun school be substituted by the 1-way pulpit but still keeping the essence of revelation of God (or God's servant the preacher)? You give me the answer.
If we're tempted to add another prayer meeting: I would ask if the objective of the meeting is to worship (we could just praise and thanksgiving), to share (we pray for the needs of ourselves and others, and the church's), or to seek for the truth (we ask God why He allows sufferings in Sichuan). I see all these could be fitted into that big-3.
You may say may be we just need a prayer meeting at another time, then this is exactly when we need to ask if this extra meeting will make me busier, affect my spiritual condition, and whether it is necessary of course.
Sometimes we might say well, we have some B&S who're especially concerned about something and need to devotedly pray for it at another time in a small group. In this case, it is not the church which makes them busy, they volunteer to spare time to meet and pray, more than anything else, more important than getting a rest or taking a longer sleep. I believe God would appreciate their concern. Then don't blame it on the church having too much meetings.
Some would skip the big-3 because they (not the church) initiated their own gathering(s) (that's what your blog entry is all about), should the pastor stop them from not meeting to pray in this case? Of course not. But I think the pastor should respond quickly when someone try to initate additional meetings, and see if we could find a workaround in the in the big-3 by checking the objective(s) of that proposed gathering. It's not about banning or challenging like you quoted Wu, it's about offering an existing option rather than initiating another gathering.
> for some, cutting down the number of meetings > would help.
What about cutting down work hours? What about cutting down the time to "hea" (a contemporary Cantonese slang among teenages meaning wasting time doing nothing)? My point is always why church meetings are always the first to be cut down. And why too many church meetings, rather than too much work hours or play hours or "hea" hours, are connected to spiritual inertia.
Too bad, for 25 years very rarely I've seen people's spiritual condition improved or deepened by cutting down the number of church meetings. People just used the spared time to do more work or enjoyment (which I don't mean was wrong) rather than spending more time with God.
The older I get, I more I see why God gave us Hebrews 10:25. Or... may be this strong reaction that I have is because I got hurt by seeing B&S ceasing to meet as an excuse for devoting more into the secular world.
> I think you know what I mean > force me to cough up /clarify my view
Of course I know what you mean, but when you publish your thinkings here, I need you and me to clarify things for those who don't know.
> Of course I know what you mean, but when you publish your thinkings here, I need you and me to clarify things for those who don't know.
Got it.
Since we attend different church, let me explain where I'm coming from.
My local church practises notthe same "Big-3" as you mentioned. The last time I heard, it emphasizes, in this following order: worship service, sunday school, church prayer meeting, and fellowship. Let me call it the big 3).
For example, our Wednesday night church prayer meeting is about 1.5 hours: besides the first 15-20 hymn singing, the remaining time is basically to pray for church/ sick &needy/ missionaries/ U.S. ...etc. So it can't easily be integrated into other meetings.
In addition to four weekly meetings I mentioned, there're other well-intended, well-planned trainings/workshop/special events organized by my church from time to time.
For me, it's a lot of meetings!
My blog entry is to reflect, to discern whether and when I can say "no" to certain meetings, and when I do if I'm becoming more worldly or simply keeping sane my spiritual/physical being.
How about the word "balance"? And each person has their own "balance" tipping point. Listen to your inner voice when you're exhausted or burnt out from doing whatever. I don't believe that God's intended purpose for gathering is to exhaust you to death.
To me, two purposes for gatherings, in broad terms and whatever format: 1) Worship 2) Community
I'm always baffled at how many church meetings you go to.
> How about the word "balance"? And each person has their own "balance" tipping point.
You're saying things on my mind.
Balance, yes, definitely. But "how" is the million dollar question, as I'm seeking that point myself.
> Listen to your inner voice when you're exhausted or burnt out from doing whatever.
Yes and no. Inner voices sometimes malfunction. That's why I am looking for a basic Biblical principle ... to then evaluate the various church models. I'm way past the age to rebel or ignore what my church practises to go about my own way.
I totally get your point since day 1 la! Can't you see that I'm just 借題發揮 here?
YCC has a lot more meetings and gatherings, and of course the weekly Wed prayer meetings like yours too. But how come attending such meetings would result in「靈性仍是停在表面一層的淺土」？
> For me, it's a lot of meetings!
Then make your choice and stop joining some of them. But even this is the case, your busy schedule only implies you want to take a break, and it's difficult to relate that to your spiritual conditions, not to mention I believe it is hard for us to define what is the "ideal" condition that we could go for by reducing meetings.
Does it mean when I choose to join prayer meetings and not fellowship or Sun schools (in order not to be overloaded, in order to「慢下來」或「靜下來」implies that I'm a better Christian（靈性好一點的那一種）? Better be Mary than Martha?
> How about the word "balance"?
Speaking about "balance", we sleep for 8 hours or less a day, we work for 8 hours or more a day, we eat for 2 hours or more a day, we watch TV, we chat, we surf the net, we water the flowers... but we only spend 1.5 hrs on worship, 2 hrs on fellowship, 2 hrs on prayer meeting... in a week, and that's less than 1 hour per day! Then probably another 20 mins on devotional time per day... still it's long way from being unbalance. Again, how come these 1-2 hours per week are always the firsts to be connected to spiritual inertia while others could escape from it?
> "how" is the million dollar question
Stick to the big-3, and question why you can't do others with those.
OK, need to meet for organizing an evangelical tour, a crusade, or just a practise for choir... That's exhausting, isn't it?
Back to square 1 and I'm making my point, how come these meetings are exhausting when you're passionate to serve the Lord. We serve with passion and joy, and we learn from one another with B&S through this team work. All these labour do have a purpose and we believe in that purpose. It's much more valuable than watching TV, watering plants, sometimes more valuable than sleeping too. So again, how come meeting to serve, to debate, to struggle will leave you at「靈性仍是停在表面一層的淺土」？
> So again, how come meeting to serve, to debate, to struggle will leave you at「靈性仍是停在表面一層的淺土」？
We're not discrediting the value of meeting, just noting that meeting itself doesn't guarantee spiritual well-being.
> Back to square 1 and I'm making my point, how come these meetings are exhausting when you're passionate to serve the Lord.
Don't you have the answer? Or you're making me cough up something again?
Let's be honest. Do you feel exhilarated everytime you serve with brothers/sisters? Or let me be honest. Sometimes I do. But sometimes I don't. In fact, I felt frustrated, discouraged, my energy zapped most of the time in the past two years' serving. What went wrong? Some lessons of humility/patience/character building for me to learn? Something wrong with me, my attitude, my aptitude, or something else? Maybe I thought I tried hard but I didn't try hard enough (like in one of the C.S. Lewis's Chronicles of Narnia stories.) Maybe me and the post I serve are not a fit...
I do not attempt to generate some kind of universal truth using my own particular example. It's just an example. But when I'm not well spiritually, going to meetings usually don't help. I'm fixed in private, either me and the Lord, or at most me and a mentor and the Lord.
12 comments:
如果信徒合一的崇拜、弟兄姊妹走在一起團契、與及拿著聖經在主日學研習神的話語等不透過聚會這些形式，又可以通過甚麼體現出來？
我還沒有細想這個問題，但即時的想法是「聚會」可能是各樣事工的最後防線，必須先盡量在質上面攪好，才想聚會以外還可作甚麼。若連聚會也取消了，沒可以怎樣講質素？
如此說來，一個信徒每星期參加一次崇拜、一次團契、一次主日學，不見得會逼得他要死。看來這未必是「聚會」本身的問題...
反而當處身「聚會＞忙＞沒預備好聚會＞更忙」這惡性循環當中，人就首先要想到向聚會開刀。
> 一個信徒每星期參加一次崇拜、一次團契、一次主日學，不見得會逼得他要死。
haha... 3 meetings per week, not dead yet. Good.
in my local church, how about 4, if we add the Wednesday night church prayer meetingg?
how about 5, if we add a workshop Sunday afternoon, or Saturday morning?
i guess i'm not looking for a "number" answer but rather a Biblical principle to go by. in the process, i'd like to re-think the purpose of each of our well-intended gatherings.
> 反而當處身「聚會＞忙＞沒預備好聚會＞更忙」這惡性循環當中，人就首先要想到向聚會開刀。
hm...perhaps that's what motivated this entry in the first place.
When we need to add the "how-about"-gatherings, we need to question why we're not doing the original 3 (Sun service, fellowship, Sun school) good enough. Adding gatherings of course won't help but worsen the original 3 because we spare our time and energy for more gatherings.
Can we not pray well and pray in one in the original 3, that we need to add prayer meetings?
Can we not learn well the Bible and how to apply it in Sun school that we need to add another workshop?
I just like to point out that if not realized by gatherings, how do we realize「慢下來」或「靜下來」? I doubt if stopping to meet and staying at home would help...
哎呀, I think you know what I mean...but you withhold a straight-forward answer ...to force me to cough up /clarify my view ...
> I doubt if stopping to meet and staying at home would help...
Of course, I don't mean to not meet at all. But for some, cutting down the number of meetings would help.
> Can we not pray well and pray in one in the original 3, that we need to add prayer meetings? Can we not learn well the Bible and how to apply it in Sun school that we need to add another workshop?
I would like to continue with your rationale and ask, just for the sake of arguing, why not 2?
If we pray well and learn the Bible well all during Sunday school and worship? Aren't 2 good enough?
Or, if we do all of them "well" in one seating, even Sunday worship alone covers the following two aspects:
1. Temple related - Worship and offering various sacrifices in the Old Testament.
2. Synagogue related - the Jewish tradition of synagogue activities of Scripture reading/ chanting. These could possibly have become the New Testament church's hymn and Psalm singing/Scripture reading/Holy Communion/praying.
Did I miss anything?
Thanks for reading & responding la.
Sorry this'll be long...
> just for the sake of arguing, why not 2?
Yes, just for the sake of arguing, no ill-feeling...
> if we do all of them "well" in one seating,
> even Sunday worship alone covers...
Of course worship, praying, reading the Bible, serving are all intertwined and difficult to separate them in practice. Every different kinds of gathering has a bit of everything, but with a different focus -- this we all know:
Worship: praying, learning God's word, fellowship and serving in the context of worship (God-focused, vertical, unity, unified testimony...). The point is, is God glorified through the congregation and these rituals? So we shouldn't tolerate an untrained pianist to be pianist here. If one didn't get anything from the sermon, we challenge him instead of the preacher, because this is the time for God, not individuals.
Fellowship: praying, worship, learning God's word, and serving in the context of fellowship (B&S-focused, horizontal, communication, interactive, learning, sharing, praying for one another's needs, application of learned principles, diversity, diversified testimony...). The point is, do we learn something from one another from our and their faith through how we practise our faith? How to stand up again if one fell? This is why we could and we should tolerate a brother or sister to be a poor guitarist serving in the hymn session, even giving him/her a next chance to improve, and next time, and next time... If one didn't enjoy the gathering, we evaluate how we conducted the rundown, ask why the message or the good feelings of brotherhood was not received.
Sun school: praying, worship, fellowship, serving in the context of learning God's words (truth-focused, what the Bible teaches about all these praying, worship, serving, fellowship, and of course how to apply them...). The point is to find out and understand what the Bible is teaching. We talk about application but this is not the time to practise -- practise it somewhere else: in worship, in fellowship, in service, in your workplace, at home... At fellowship, one's understanding of the truth could be very persoal, here we almost want to have the one and only almost-dogmatized exposition of God's Word.
This is how I come to the conclusion that we need 3 instead of 2. Let me call these "the big-3".
If we're tempted to cut down fellowship and claim we could achieve that essence in worship, then I vision the form of worship need to be re-designed in a radical way. Could the teaching of truth in Sun school be substituted by the 1-way pulpit but still keeping the essence of revelation of God (or God's servant the preacher)? You give me the answer.
If we're tempted to add another prayer meeting: I would ask if the objective of the meeting is to worship (we could just praise and thanksgiving), to share (we pray for the needs of ourselves and others, and the church's), or to seek for the truth (we ask God why He allows sufferings in Sichuan). I see all these could be fitted into that big-3.
You may say may be we just need a prayer meeting at another time, then this is exactly when we need to ask if this extra meeting will make me busier, affect my spiritual condition, and whether it is necessary of course.
Sometimes we might say well, we have some B&S who're especially concerned about something and need to devotedly pray for it at another time in a small group. In this case, it is not the church which makes them busy, they volunteer to spare time to meet and pray, more than anything else, more important than getting a rest or taking a longer sleep. I believe God would appreciate their concern. Then don't blame it on the church having too much meetings.
Some would skip the big-3 because they (not the church) initiated their own gathering(s) (that's what your blog entry is all about), should the pastor stop them from not meeting to pray in this case? Of course not. But I think the pastor should respond quickly when someone try to initate additional meetings, and see if we could find a workaround in the in the big-3 by checking the objective(s) of that proposed gathering. It's not about banning or challenging like you quoted Wu, it's about offering an existing option rather than initiating another gathering.
> for some, cutting down the number of meetings
> would help.
What about cutting down work hours? What about cutting down the time to "hea" (a contemporary Cantonese slang among teenages meaning wasting time doing nothing)? My point is always why church meetings are always the first to be cut down. And why too many church meetings, rather than too much work hours or play hours or "hea" hours, are connected to spiritual inertia.
Too bad, for 25 years very rarely I've seen people's spiritual condition improved or deepened by cutting down the number of church meetings. People just used the spared time to do more work or enjoyment (which I don't mean was wrong) rather than spending more time with God.
The older I get, I more I see why God gave us Hebrews 10:25. Or... may be this strong reaction that I have is because I got hurt by seeing B&S ceasing to meet as an excuse for devoting more into the secular world.
> I think you know what I mean
> force me to cough up /clarify my view
Of course I know what you mean, but when you publish your thinkings here, I need you and me to clarify things for those who don't know.
> Of course I know what you mean, but when you publish your thinkings here, I need you and me to clarify things for those who don't know.
Got it.
Since we attend different church, let me explain where I'm coming from.
My local church practises notthe same "Big-3" as you mentioned. The last time I heard, it emphasizes, in this following order: worship service, sunday school, church prayer meeting, and fellowship. Let me call it the big 3).
For example, our Wednesday night church prayer meeting is about 1.5 hours: besides the first 15-20 hymn singing, the remaining time is basically to pray for church/ sick &needy/ missionaries/ U.S. ...etc. So it can't easily be integrated into other meetings.
In addition to four weekly meetings I mentioned, there're other well-intended, well-planned trainings/workshop/special events organized by my church from time to time.
For me, it's a lot of meetings!
My blog entry is to reflect, to discern whether and when I can say "no" to certain meetings, and when I do if I'm becoming more worldly or simply keeping sane my spiritual/physical being.
Better clarified this round?
How about the word "balance"? And each person has their own "balance" tipping point. Listen to your inner voice when you're exhausted or burnt out from doing whatever. I don't believe that God's intended purpose for gathering is to exhaust you to death.
To me, two purposes for gatherings, in broad terms and whatever format:
1) Worship
2) Community
I'm always baffled at how many church meetings you go to.
> How about the word "balance"? And each person has their own "balance" tipping point.
You're saying things on my mind.
Balance, yes, definitely. But "how" is the million dollar question, as I'm seeking that point myself.
> Listen to your inner voice when you're exhausted or burnt out from doing whatever.
Yes and no. Inner voices sometimes malfunction. That's why I am looking for a basic Biblical principle ... to then evaluate the various church models. I'm way past the age to rebel or ignore what my church practises to go about my own way.
> Better clarified this round?
I totally get your point since day 1 la! Can't you see that I'm just 借題發揮 here?
YCC has a lot more meetings and gatherings, and of course the weekly Wed prayer meetings like yours too. But how come attending such meetings would result in「靈性仍是停在表面一層的淺土」？
> For me, it's a lot of meetings!
Then make your choice and stop joining some of them. But even this is the case, your busy schedule only implies you want to take a break, and it's difficult to relate that to your spiritual conditions, not to mention I believe it is hard for us to define what is the "ideal" condition that we could go for by reducing meetings.
Does it mean when I choose to join prayer meetings and not fellowship or Sun schools (in order not to be overloaded, in order to「慢下來」或「靜下來」implies that I'm a better Christian（靈性好一點的那一種）? Better be Mary than Martha?
> How about the word "balance"?
Speaking about "balance", we sleep for 8 hours or less a day, we work for 8 hours or more a day, we eat for 2 hours or more a day, we watch TV, we chat, we surf the net, we water the flowers... but we only spend 1.5 hrs on worship, 2 hrs on fellowship, 2 hrs on prayer meeting... in a week, and that's less than 1 hour per day! Then probably another 20 mins on devotional time per day... still it's long way from being unbalance. Again, how come these 1-2 hours per week are always the firsts to be connected to spiritual inertia while others could escape from it?
> "how" is the million dollar question
Stick to the big-3, and question why you can't do others with those.
OK, need to meet for organizing an evangelical tour, a crusade, or just a practise for choir... That's exhausting, isn't it?
Back to square 1 and I'm making my point, how come these meetings are exhausting when you're passionate to serve the Lord. We serve with passion and joy, and we learn from one another with B&S through this team work. All these labour do have a purpose and we believe in that purpose. It's much more valuable than watching TV, watering plants, sometimes more valuable than sleeping too. So again, how come meeting to serve, to debate, to struggle will leave you at「靈性仍是停在表面一層的淺土」？
> So again, how come meeting to serve, to debate, to struggle will leave you at「靈性仍是停在表面一層的淺土」？
We're not discrediting the value of meeting, just noting that meeting itself doesn't guarantee spiritual well-being.
> Back to square 1 and I'm making my point, how come these meetings are exhausting when you're passionate to serve the Lord.
Don't you have the answer? Or you're making me cough up something again?
Let's be honest. Do you feel exhilarated everytime you serve with brothers/sisters? Or let me be honest. Sometimes I do. But sometimes I don't. In fact, I felt frustrated, discouraged, my energy zapped most of the time in the past two years' serving. What went wrong? Some lessons of humility/patience/character building for me to learn? Something wrong with me, my attitude, my aptitude, or something else? Maybe I thought I tried hard but I didn't try hard enough (like in one of the C.S. Lewis's Chronicles of Narnia stories.) Maybe me and the post I serve are not a fit...
I do not attempt to generate some kind of universal truth using my own particular example. It's just an example. But when I'm not well spiritually, going to meetings usually don't help. I'm fixed in private, either me and the Lord, or at most me and a mentor and the Lord.
> Sometimes I do. But sometimes I don't.
Amen. But since...
> We're not discrediting the value of meeting,
> just noting that meeting itself doesn't guarantee
> spiritual well-being.
and it doesn't discredit meetings either.
> when I'm not well spiritually, going to meetings
> usually don't help. I'm fixed in private
Then fix it in private, but don't stop meeting.
I'm debating with Wu that you quoted, not you. Time to bed, sister.
I feel that our thinkings are not that different but just viewing/arguing my quote from opposite angles.
Came back from the Bus Tour over the weekend. Though tired, I had much fun.
Shall move on la.
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